The festival is an annual week-long event held in August.
The next festival is from Sunday, August 22nd, till Sunday, August 29th, 2021.
The Festival takes place at Camp Walden, 429 Trout Lake Road, Diamond Point, NY 12824
For more information and directions, please visit our Location page.
Please fill out the Festival Application and make a minimum payment of $75.
If you have any questions regarding Registration and Payments, Donations, Marketing, Sponsorship or Press and Media, please contact Anne Osborne at WoodstockFruitFestival@gmail.com
Want to be a part of our Amazing Volunteer Team, or have any questions regarding Speaking or Presenting at our event, please contact Anne Osborne at WoodstockFruitFestivalTeam@gmail.com
Admission fees depend on your choice of housing, as well as on when you register. Our fees go up by $50 on the first of each month.
• All Returning Attendees, who attended 1 or more prior festivals as Full Time Paying Participants, get the following Returning Attendee Discounts:
♥ 1 prior festival - $200. discount ♥
♥ 2 prior festivals - $300. discount ♥
Discounts can only be applied to Shared Cabins, Camping, and Offsite Housing options.
Private Rooms don't qualify for discounts.
• Participants over 60 years young are getting $200 discount for Shared Cabin, Camping and Offsite Housing ♥
• If you are coming with children 4+ years old and staying in a shared cabin, they will please require a separate bed.
Camp Walden is a children’s summer camp and most of its accommodations options are Shared Bunk Cabins and Tent Camping Area.
Shared Cabins have been recently renovated, featuring new wooden bed frames, comfortable new mattresses, ceiling fans, large windows, and new bathrooms. Cabins capacity ranges between 4 and 9. Shared Cabins are subdivided into the following types: All Women Cabins, All Men Cabins, Co-ed Cabins (for couples and friends), and Family Cabins (for participants with children).
We also have a limited number of Single and Double Private Rooms available for reservations. For details, please email us at WoodstockFruitFestival@gmail.com
Alternatively, you could rent some offsite accommodations nearby. If you decide to stay off site, your admission cost will be the same as Camping Rates. Please note that no transportation to or from offsite accommodations can be provided; you will need your own transportation to get to and from Camp Walden each day.
Twin Pines Lodgings
We have stayed at Twin Pines twice and highly recommends it.
520, Lamb Hill, Diamond Point, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 1 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 2 min
Phone: +1 518 644 2161
Twin Pines will give Special Rates to Fruit Festival attendees if they register with them 2 months in advance!
1) A unit with 1 bedroom (sleeps 3) for $600 (regular price is ~$748)
2) A unit with 3 bedrooms (sleeps 8) for $1000 (regular price is $1,230 each).
4610, Lake Shore Drive, Bolton Landing, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 8 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 14 min
Phone: +1 518 644 9750
Bonnie View on Lake George
4654 Lake Shore Drive, Bolton Landing, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 8 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 15 min
Phone: +1 518 644 5591
Accommodation prices range from $655- $1070 for a week.
Blue Water Manor
4436 Lake Shore Drive, Diamond Point, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 8 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 17 min
Phone: +1 518 644 2535
Starting from $155/night for 2 people.
10% discount on some lodging options if you stay a full week.
Treasure Cove Resort Motel
3940 Lake Shore Drive, Diamond Point, NY.
Driving time to Camp Walden: 10 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 29 min
Phone: +1 518 668 5334
Motel units range from $1080- 1295. per week.
Chelka Lodge on Lake George
4204 Lake Shore Drive, Diamond Point, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 10 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 23 min
Phone: +1 518 668 4677
Motel units are $165 (2 double beds) and $185 (1 king bed) per night, double occupancy ($1100 and $1200 per week, respectively). If more than 2 people are staying in the room there is an additional charge of $15 per person, per night ($95 per week). For children 2 years and under the additional charge is $5 per night.
110 Sagamore Road, Bolton Landing, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 11 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 25 min
Phone: +1 866 384 1944
Canoe Island Lodge
3820 Lake Shore Drive, Diamond Point, New York
Driving time to Camp Walden: 12 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 44 min
Phone: +1 518 668 5592
Adirondack Park Motel
5680 Lake Shore Drive, Bolton Landing, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 13 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 46 min
Phone: +1 518 644 9800
Situated about 7 miles from Camp Walden.
The room rates range from $124-$140 per night or $784-$882 per week.
This facility also has a house for rent that sleeps up to 10 people - it has 4 bedrooms - $1,700 per week. It's about 2.5 miles from Camp Walden.
Cornerstone Victorian Bed and Breakfast
3921, Main Street, Warrensburg, NY
Driving time to Camp Walden: 19 min
Cycling time to Camp Walden: 43 min
Phone: +1 518 623 3308
Running a special which is, stay two nights - get the third night for half price, and pay for 3 nigths - stay the 4th night for free.
Fresh, ripe, raw, organic and conventional, local and exotic, the best seasonal fruits and vegetables!
No set meal times! No clock and no pressure of any kind! Unlimited fruit buffet all day long and a salad buffet in the evening.
Check out our 2019 Schedule here. 2021 Schedule is under development and will be released in Spring 2021.
In order to take advantage of the current low price, you need either to pay the total amount in full or set up a payment plan by the end of the month.
The admission fees increase on the 1st of each month.
All Admission Fee payments are refundable minus a $95.00 processing fee per adult (16+) per session and $25.00 processing fee per child (under 16) per session until July 21st, 2022.
To avoid processing fees, you can opt for IN-HOUSE CREDIT for the full amount of your payment towards a future event.
Children with free entries are not charged processing fees.
After July 21st you can get an IN-HOUSE CREDIT for the full amount of your payment towards a future event.
Your IN-HOUSE CREDIT can be transferred to a friend.
Discounts cannot be transferred.
Attendees changing accommodations to lower cost after July 21st will get an IN-HOUSE credit for the difference in price.
IN-HOUSE CREDIT cannot be refunded.
All Bedding and Camping Gear is fully refundable until July 21st, 2022.
After July 21st there are no refunds or credit for Bedding and Camping Gear.
Each festival participant will need to sign a hard copy of ‘Terms & Conditions’ waiver form at check in. Please see the full text below:
I, for myself, my heirs, my executors, my administrators, my trustees, and any and all successors in interest, fully and forever waive and release my right to sue The Woodstock Fruit Festival, The Fruitarian Corp, Camp Walden, Camp Dream LLC, and Jumbo Realty LLC, and all their owners, organizers, employees, participants, managers, volunteers, sponsors, and representatives (collectively “Festival”) acting for or on behalf of the Festival for any injuries or damages, including but not limited to negligence, premises liability, physical injury, illness (including death), emotional injury, intentional conduct resulting in unintended injury or damage, or economic loss which may result from my participation in the Woodstock Fruit Festival 2020 (“WFF2020”), travel to or from WFF2020 (including air travel) or any events incidental to WFF2020, and any other claims of whatsoever nature, to the fullest extent permitted by law.
I agree to hold the Festival harmless from any and all claims, loss or damage to my personal property, liabilities and costs, including attorney’s fees, as a result of my participation in the WFF2020, including travel to and from the WFF2020 (including air travel) or any events incidental to the WFF2020. If the Festival incurs any of these types of expenses, I agree to reimburse the Festival.
I acknowledge that the Festival is NOT responsible for the errors, omissions, acts, or failures to act of any party or entity conducting a specific event or activity on behalf of the Festival. I acknowledge that I am aware of the inherent risks involved in the event, including but not limited to those resulting from inclement weather, slipping, falling, uneven terrain, wildlife encounters, insect bites, or equipment failure, and I voluntarily assume these risks. I certify that I am physically fit sufficiently for participation in the WFF2020, and have not been advised to not participate by a qualified medical professional.
If I need medical treatment as a result of my participation in the WFF2020, travel to and from the WFF2020 (including air travel), or any events incidental to the WFF2020, I agree to be financially responsible for any costs incurred as a result of such treatment. I am aware that the Festival does not provide health insurance for me and that I should carry my own health insurance.
I acknowledge that to ensure security and safety of all participants, the Woodstock Fruit Festival reserves the right to do a Criminal Background Check on each attendee as well as to refuse Registration, to revoke Registration, and to expel participants behaving in inappropriate or threatening manner at management's discretion.
I agree to preserve the noncommercial nature of the festival and not to sell any products or services to the festival attendees during the week of the event (with the exception of Presenters Showcase for presenters and special guests approved by festival admins).
I understand that at this event or related activities, I may be photographed. I agree to allow my photo, video, or film likeness to be used for the future promotion of the Woodstock Fruit Festival by the event holders, producers, sponsors, organizers, and volunteers.
I understand that use or possession of any mind altering substances or cigarettes on the festival grounds is unacceptable and anyone not complying will be subject to removal.
I understand that all information available at the WFF2020 is for informational purposes only, and neither the Festival nor any third party involved in the creation, support, or maintenance of the event will be liable under any theory for any incidental, consequential, or punitive damages arising out of their access to or use of the information made available at the event or from the Woodstock Fruit Festival website.
I understand and agree with the following Waterfront Rules: the Waterfront will be open from 8:30 am to 6:00 pm, as long as a Waterfront Director is present. There can only be up to 25 people in the water per attending lifeguard at any one time. Lifeguards will work on a rotation with breaks built into the schedule so that all lifeguards can take a lunch break and keep the waterfront open from 8:30 am to 6:00 pm without closing it for lunch. Camp Walden recommends that the Participants use the American Red Cross “Buddy System” so that no one is swimming alone. The waterfront has a Swim-At-Your-Own-Risk-Policy. Use of the waterfront includes the use of the beach, lakefront swim areas, water mats, inflatables and the following nonpowered boats: rowboats, canoes, kayaks, paddle boats and paddleboards. Children under the age of 14 must be accompanied by a parent or guardian when down at the waterfront. Each adult may only be responsible for up to three children. Life jackets must be worn at all times, regardless of age or swimming ability when using any boats, inflatables or floating objects. People who cannot demonstrate strong swimming ability cannot go in the deep water without a lifejacket. All waterfront rules and lifeguard commands must be complied with. Camp Walden reserves the right to modify these rules at any time. Lifeguards maintain the authority to require, at their own discretion, any individual who cannot demonstrate strong swimming ability, to either wear a lifejacket, leave the deep water area or leave the waterfront if not listening to the lifeguards. People not cooperating may be asked to leave the facility. Wearing bathing suits is required. Participants can only use Waterfront during posted hours of operation and swim only in the designated area. Participants are not allowed to swim after using mind altering substances. IN AN EMERGENCY, PARTICIPANTS MUST NOTIFY THE FACILITY OPERATOR AND CONTACT HELP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. A free telephone is provided at the waterfront (outside the guard shack). Dial 911 for an emergency.
I understand and agree that all athletic equipment, including but not limited to basketballs, tennis rackets, soccer balls, mountain bikes, etc. is provided on a Use-At-Your-Own-Risk policy. Mountain bikes are provided for off premises use only and are not to be ridden on camp property, especially down the hill. All bike riders must wear closed toe shoes and helmets, and that bikes must be put away after each use.
All Admission Fee payments are refundable minus a $75. processing fee per adult (16+) per session and $25. processing fee per child (under 16) per session until July 21st, 2021. Children with free entries are not charged processing fees. After July 21st you can get an IN-HOUSE CREDIT for the full amount of your payment towards a future event. Attendees changing accommodations to lower cost after July 21st will get an IN-HOUSE credit for the difference in price. All Bedding and Camping Gear is fully refundable until July 21st, 2021. After July 21st there are no refunds or credit for Bedding and Camping Gear.
I agree that any dispute concerning, relating, arising out of or referring to the subject matter of this contract shall be resolved exclusively by binding arbitration in New York State and Warren County, according to the then existing commercial rules of the American Arbitration Association and the substantive laws of that state. Any dispute submitted to arbitration under this clause must be heard by the arbitrator(s) in its entirety within one year of submission, who must render his/her decision within thirty days of the close of the evidence.
The arbitrator and not any federal, state or local court or agency shall have exclusive authority to resolve any dispute relating to the interpretation, applicability, enforceability, or formation of this contract, including but not limited to any claim that all or any part of this contract is void or violable.
I CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ THIS DOCUMENT, AND I FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENT. I AM AWARE THAT THIS IS A RELEASE OF LIABILITY AND A CONTRACT AND I SIGN IT OF MY OWN FREE WILL.
All attendees under 18 years of age need to have a disclaimer signed by their parents or guardians, including the following clause:
The undersigned parent and/or guardian does hereby represent that he/she is, in fact, acting in such capacity, has consented to his/her child or ward’s participation in the activity or event, and has agreed individually and on behalf of the child or ward, to the terms of the accident waiver and release of liability set forth above. The undersigned parent or guardian further agrees to save and hold harmless and indemnify each and all of the parties referred to above from all liability, loss, cost, claim, or damage whatsoever which may be imposed upon said parties because of any defect in or lack of such capacity to so act and release said parties on behalf of the minor and the parents or legal guardian.
If you're registered already, make sure to join our WFF 2021 Facebook Group exclusively for the 2021 Festival Attendees, Volunteers, and Presenters to help create Community, inspire, share, ask questions, and get to know each other.
We have a private bus service available from both New York City and Albany to Camp Walden and back to New York City + Albany after the event. Bus registration for Woodstock 2021 will be open in June 2021 on our Location page, 'WFF Private Shuttle Bus' section.
Trailways offer a service from the Port Authority Bus Station in NYC and from Albany Town and Albany Airport to Warrensburg, which is about 10 miles from Camp Walden: http://trailwaysny.com/
From Warrensburg, you can get a cab to Camp Walden.
Here is a link for taxi services in the Warrensburg area: http://www.yellowpages.com/warrensburg-ny/taxi
Please add a discussion in our 2019 Facebook Group for registered attendees.
Please email us at WoodstockFruitFestivalTeam@gmail.com and we will send you a link to the Volunteer Application 2019 when it’s ready. In the festival application you will have an opportunity to apply for specific Work Exchange positions that you are interested in. Please note that the we only need a limited amount of volunteers and won't be able to accept all applicants.
All first time volunteers will need to pay a Volunteer Security Deposit of $375, out of which $300 will be refunded to them immediately after the event, provided they fulfil their commitments to the festival, and $75 is a non-refundable processing fee.
All returning volunteers will need to pay a Volunteer Security Deposit of $300 with no processing fee.
We will not be able to notify applicants NOT selected for Work Exchange Program, because we are receiving an overwhelming amount of volunteer application and our needs for volunteers are constantly changing. Please think of your volunteer application as of being on a waiting list and feel free to check your status by emailing WoodstockFruitFestivalTeam@gmail.com
If you would like to secure the current admission fee for regular participants in case you are not accepted into Work Exchange program, you can do so by setting up a payment plan or paying in full now. Later if you are selected as a volunteer, we will refund you the excess amount.
Yes, we welcome Attendees of all ages.
If you are over 59, you are entitled to a special senior discount.
If you are under 16, you need to be accompanied by an adult aged 16 or over.
Yes, we welcome Attendees with all levels of fitness. Our wide range of fitness classes offer something for everyone no matter what your current level of fitness.
The festival site is on a steep incline, but if you have a power assisted wheelchair, you are likely to be able to navigate the majority of Camp Walden.
Four of our shared cabins have accessible entrances, showers and toilets. Please e-mail us for further information at WoodstockFruitFestival@gmail.com
We would like to bring as many families with children to the festival as possible. Children are our future and it is vitally important to expose them to the environment where eating whole raw fruits and vegetables is the norm.
To make it realistic for a family with several kids to afford the festival here are the different options:
- Children under 3 are free when camping and free if staying in a cabin and sleeping with a parent (not taking an extra bed, if taking a separate bed it is $595).
- The fee for kids aged 3 is $195 when in a shared cabin and sleeping with a parent.
- The fee for kids 3-9 years old, when camping, is $195.
- The fee for kids aged 10-15, when camping, is $495.
- Children 4 to 15 staying in a cabin pay a reduced rate of $595 (have to take a separate bed).
Camping is an excellent option for families with children who are on a budget where no additional bed fees are charged for kids under 3, children 3-9 pay $195. and 10 to 15 years olds - $495.
By bringing your children to the Woodstock Fruit Festival you might just sow some seeds that will affect their entire life.
16 years of age.
Upon registration, attendees between 16 and 18 years of age need to provide contact information of the parent for us to confirm their consent and a waiver signed by the parent.
Having families attend and catering to their needs is a very important focus for the Woodstock Fruit Festival. We will be having various Children’s Activities on the schedule during the daytime, including Go-karts, Food Prep Classes, Children’s Craft Classes, Face-painting, Tie-dying, Children’s Yoga and Fitness Classes, as well as Ropes Challenge Course with Zip Line and Giant Swing and Waterfront with water slides, mats and trampoline! Children can attend these activities accompanied by a parent or care-giver.
If you have any questions about our activities for children please contact us at WoodstockFruitFestival@gmail.com
The Camp has high speed wireless Internet in several areas; we have several WiFi 'Hotspots' on the Festival site as well as regular Internet access with 3–4 computers in the Staff Lounge for everyone to share. In addition, we will be adding extra routers to improve internet access.
Verizon is pretty much the only service that works reliably at Camp Walden. Good reception can be accessed with a Verizon prepaid phone.
Cabins have storage area with shelves, but no lockers.
There will be some options for 'locking' valuable stuff up, but it isn't an organized 'official' service that we are providing. The camp has an office that can be locked, and also there are a few lockers with combinations that we can utilize. There is a 'safe' too that can be used as needed for people that want to lock up passports, wallet etc. But labeling these things and keeping a log is not something we are really preparing for.
So, in short, best option is to bring a lock for your baggage and not to bring anything too valuable.
The Woodstock Fruit Festival brings together high quality individuals who would like to share fruit, fun, and their experience in a beautiful and supportive environment.
To ensure that our community and event is safe for adults and children, WFF reserves the right to ask attendees to accept standard ‘Background Checks’.
Our Volunteers who work with the children are required to hold 'Working with Children Card' or have a National Police Check.
We also have a Security Team operating on the facility at night.
The Woodstock Fruit Festival will supply wristbands and name tags when you arrive on the opening day. Those who attend the festival agree to wear wrist bands as a proof of payment.
We will be having our security staff check Attendee's wristbands, this is to help prevent gatecrashers, and increase the safety of the event.
We do try to get as much organic produce as is feasible and affordable. Because we need perfectly ripe fruit for the festival, we have needed to include some inorganic produce to ensure we get enough to feed everyone. In addition, it is often challenging to source organic exotic and tropical fruits. At the first NY Festival, which was much smaller, just about all the produce was certified organic, but as the Festival has grown in size, it has been more challenging to get all our produce certified organic, especially when we need to source adequate amounts of ripe fruit.
Most of the organic fruit tends to have organic labels on. The Produce Crew at the Festival will know exactly which fruit is organic and which is not, so if there is any doubt you can also always ask a member of the Volunteer Kitchen and Produce Teams or our raw Vegan Chef. We aim not to have any GMO produce at our event.
We do not use any oils or processed or refined ingredients in the prepared meals, we also do not use salt in the dishes. All ingredients are raw and vegan.
In 2016 all of our Baby Salad Greens, Herbs, Tomatoes, Corn, Zucchinis, Cucumbers, and most other vegetables like Kale, Cabbage, Spinach, Carrots, Daikon, Leeks, Beets, Mushrooms etc were organic. Our Papayas were not organic but they were Jamaican and non-GMO.
We will have a water filter installed on a publicly accessible sink.
Unfortunately we can’t do it earlier in the summer because all the campgrounds are running kids summer programs and are not available for group rentals. The only time we can rent them is after the kids go back home, which unfortunately is always just when the university classes start. We realize it's a huge problem for college students, but we have no other choice at the moment but to hold it at the end of August each year.
We are all gathering together in the hopes and dreams of eating a fruit based diet at the highest level possible. Having this time together without any other food distractions is very important to respect.
For this reason, we request all festival participants not to bring any foods other than whole raw fruits and vegetables to the event. If you feel that you cannot respect this request, please do not break this policy publicly. If your children need to eat other foods, please be discreet and private about it and explain to them why this is the case.
Absolutely no cooking or fire related activities are allowed on the festival site. This is a camp policy.
If you’ve never experienced eating nothing but all raw natural plant foods for a week, give yourself the gift of opportunity. It might become one of the greatest experiences in your life if you allow it to happen.
There are mountain bikes and helmets that can be borrowed at Camp Walden, at no extra charge.
If you forget anything there is a beautiful local town called Bolton Landing only 10 minutes by car that has a lot of shops that would have most necessities.
Plan for warm summer days, and cooler nights (great sleeping weather). Bring sweatshirts and sweatpants to sleep in and hang out in at night and in the morning and then summer clothes and bathing suits for the daytime. The cabins don’t have windows, just screens, so an extra blanket would be smart to have. Historic average temperature ranges from 50’sF at night to low 80’sF during the day.
Unfortunately, pets are not allowed at Camp Walden. We will consider requests on a case by case basis for extremely well behaved pets. But we make no promises! Please email us to discuss further at WoodstockFruitFestival@gmail.com
In 2014 we were happy to work with Kilpatrick Family Farm, which graciously agreed to pick up all our fruit and veggie leftovers (including durian shells, coconut husks and avocado pits) and compost them on their farm. Unfortunately in 2015 the farm had been sold to different owners, who are not interested in our compost. We are currently researching a farm in the area that will work with us.
We do recycle all boxes.
Unfortunately, we do not have any laundry facilities for Attendees. So please be mindful of this when considering the amount of clothing to pack. The link below contains information on Laundromats in the area: http://www.yellowpages.com/diamond-point-ny/laundromats
Any drums and percussion instruments will come extremely handy at our fireside drum circles! Whether it's a dusty collection of djembes, shakers, those maracas you got on that trip to the Caribbean, or wooden spons, pots and pans - whatever you got!
Remember, the first rule of drumming is Everything is a Drum!
Tennis racquets and balls, and basketballs are available to Attendees for use at no extra cost at Camp Walden's sports facilities.
Great news! So far in our prior years we experienced nearly zero mosquitoes. They die off by the end of July and bugs are nearly a non-issue during our festival. This is awesome! :)
We had reviewed literally dozens of options before chosing Camp Walden. We considered locations in California, Florida, Thailand, Australia, Europe and more as well asvarious times of the year. Here’s why we chose Camp Walden over other options:
Depending on how you look at it, upstate New York is a great compromise meeting destination. It's within driving distance to many major cities that have large transportation hubs. Nearly 50 million people live within an 8 hour drive to Camp Walden.
Produce Selection, Price and Availability:
There are many local farms within closer proximity of Camp Walden in upstate New York, with August being peak harvesting season. The New York City produce selection and diversity is at its peak in late summer, with prices usually being their lowest of the year in August.
We saw a lot of places that had waterfront, but none had the infrastructure and offerings of Walden's waterfront. They literally have a water-park! You are going to love it!
Climate; Time of Year:
The climate of the southern Adirondack mountains in late August is ideal 75’-80’s during the day and 60’s at night. The water temperature of the lake will be its warmest in late August (80F~)
Initially we wanted to hold the event in early to mid-August so college bound students could attend before classes start at the end of August. But all summer camps are in session until the 3rd week of August and no other options were available. We apologize for and regret the unfortunate situation that many of our college bound attendees face in choosing between missing classes or our festival.
The Southern Adirondack Mountains are one of the oldest mountain ranges in the world. The area is rich in history and geology. It’s a wonderful peaceful place to relax and enjoy pristine air, water and nature together.
Activities and Amenities:
Camp Walden has tremendous offerings from Ropes and Challenge Courses, Arts and Crafts, Sports and Fitness, Mt. Bikes, Movie Theater, Hiking, Waterfront, Indoor meeting spaces, and etc etc etc There is so much to do, and it’s all included and open to everyone.
Camp Walden has indoor housing (beds) for 397 people plus about 272 spots for campers for a total maximum capacity of 669! Few other camps that we reviewed are able to accommodate so many people. This allows us to give people the extra indoor living quarters needed to make everyone comfortable.
Price and Camp Owners:
Camp Walden offered our event a competitive price for the use of their entire facility. Mark and Lauren Bernstein (owners of the camp) have been extremely accommodating and easy to work with, they are partners in making our event the best experience ever.
The value our event is receiving from Camp Walden is 2nd to none in all other options we considered.